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Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 14:07:00 - [1] Originally by: Tippia Actually, the main argument is that ôL4s in high-sec make too much and there is no way to attack that revenue streamö ù at least from those who actually have an argument. That's why the other activities are irrelevant ù all of them can be attacked, disrupted or just plain old stolen in some way. It's the fact that this one particular activity cannot be affected from the outside, yet it is allowed to massively affect the rest of the game that bothers people. This is BS. L4 missions in hi sec CAN be disrupted. You can declare war on them. Now now. I know what your next response will be since I've come to expect circular reasoning from forum warriors. You love taking logic for a spin round and round in circles. "I can't war dec if they're in an NPC corp!1!" Then your issue isn't with L4 missions. It's with NPC corps. Go make a thread on how NPC corps aren't war-deccable (I know that isn't a word).
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:12:00 - [2] Originally by: Kane Starkiller Why is everyone complaining about mission runners? Because it's the whine of the month. FOTM. But this whole cut your eye out to spite your face is going to drastically affect PVP as well. I'd like to see who in their right mind will risk a ship on a fair fight knowing it'll take weeks/months of mining or L3's to recover from a loss. Should be interesting. But knowing the whining pirates well I'm sure they'll just beg CCP for handouts on a future FOTM whine.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:21:00 - [3] Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: Kane Starkiller Why is everyone complaining about mission runners? Good ISK and no risk? Has anyone seen how much traders make? Where is their risk, getting from one high sec trade hub to another one. There are numerous ways of making isk in EVE, learn to deal with it. Are you the same people that complain that your boss makes more money than you and gets to come in later in the day? Get out! Traders hauling between hubs have the risk, however minimal, of getting their ship suicide ganked. Apart from that, miscalculation or mistakes could potentially cost them a LOT of money. Not to mention competition between themselves and other traders. There are numerous ways to make isk in EVE, all of them are subject to some form of risk/competition/effort etc. All bar one. How does that differ from: Mission runners missioning in deadspace have the risk, however minimal, of getting their ship blown up by NPCs. Apart from that, miscalculation or mistakes could potentially cost them Billion-isk setup. Not to mention salvage and loot thives in mission hubs.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Jackson Grey Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: Kane Starkiller Why is everyone complaining about mission runners? Good ISK and no risk? Has anyone seen how much traders make? Where is their risk, getting from one high sec trade hub to another one. There are numerous ways of making isk in EVE, learn to deal with it. Are you the same people that complain that your boss makes more money than you and gets to come in later in the day? Get out! Traders hauling between hubs have the risk, however minimal, of getting their ship suicide ganked. Apart from that, miscalculation or mistakes could potentially cost them a LOT of money. Not to mention competition between themselves and other traders. There are numerous ways to make isk in EVE, all of them are subject to some form of risk/competition/effort etc. All bar one. I can understand some aspects of what your saying 'trader competition is 'risky'' but the suicide gank bit oh come on now thats utter crap. How othen does that happen nowadays? What's funny is how they add the "however minimal, it's still risk", yet a mission runner's ship getting blown up on a mission isn't risk BECAUSE it's minimal. . It's about picking and choosing what benefits them. But it won't matter, in the end it's going to affect PVP just as much they want to screw the PVE players.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 15:57:00 - [5] lollerwaffle, I'm sorry but you make it sound like traders are players in T1 haulers always parading around high sec with their cargoholds full of researched blueprints. And then you use this as the 'risk' they're having to put with every day. This is ridiculous.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:17:00 - [6] Originally by: lollerwaffle It would be nice if you could address other points I have raised as well instead of nitpicking. In a previous post, I have raised the point regarding competition as an aspect to all money making activities, except mission running. Again, this is due to the variables I addressed briefly in my previous post. Please read that and answer the fellow above in context of what I have written. That is probably the ONLY VALID POINT you make, the fact that missions don't force players to compete against other players. But to an extent neither does mining. You can argue that ore is a depletable source, but we all know this is just "in theory". The day all ore in Eve is depleted in one day is still a long way's off. I know it has happened in systems in hi sec, but not ALL of Eve. So for all practical purposes we can assume ore is in infinite supply as are missions. The difference is noticible in hi sec, where ore can be depleted but missions cannot. But why would they need to be? They give a break to players from the day to day PVP in Eve. They help PVP players recover from their losses so they can continue PVPing. They give causal players something to do. They give non-combat-PVP players something to do. It doesn't need to be just like everything else. This selfisnhess and elitism needs to stop. Some players just play for fun and self-accomplishment, not to prove to anyone else they're better than anyone else.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:33:00 - [7] Moving L4 missions to low sec may turn out to be a ganker's gankfest at first, but sooner or later things will balance out by there being less PVP. Once players start realizing lowsec isnt worth **** they'll simply stop there. Or stop logging into the game. I know lots of gankers rejoice that they're gone (because the idiots just can't think long term consequences), but eventually it will equate to less PVP being had, and even less kills. Carebears will be bored docked in stations and PVPers will be bored roaming with no targets in site. That is until they can convince CCP to nerf stations and force them out in PVE ships. It wouldn't surprise me.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Karentaki Can you ever go into a mission and come out with less ISK than you started with? This is aking to saying that mining your own ores is free. Why is the miner's time worth something but not the mission runner's?
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 16:59:00 - [9] Originally by: lollerwaffle Originally by: Matrix Skye Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/05/2009 16:41:38 Originally by: Karentaki Can you ever go into a mission and come out with less ISK than you started with? This is akin to saying that mining your own ores is free. Why is the miner's time worth something but not the mission runner's? This is exactly the biggotry I'm talking about. You silly gankers pick, choose and throw words around like 'risk vs rewards!1!' like it still means something. Yet again you have to resort to insults to lend strength to your posts. Both the miner and mission runner's time are worth money. However the issue we've been discussing all along is that hisec level 4s are not subject to any form of competition. The miner's time is worth X amount of money based on how much ore he can mine, what how much he can sell it for, how much he could save by mining a different ore, or mining in a different system closer to a better buy order. While the mission runner's time's worth is based purely on how quickly he can finish a mission. BTW, that IS NOT akin to saying mining your own ore is free. That statement and the quoted one are mutually exclusive, and have no bearing or relevance on each othere whatsoever. He is compaing mission running which generates a steady income to other activities where you actually stand a chance of losing isk. Ok then. Here's the scenario: A trader invested 500 million with the idea he'd get back 1 billion. He only managed to make 5 million in profit (a total of 505 million). Did the trader lose isk or not? Why?
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.27 17:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Dagobert Dog My sugestion is: Make missions a limited resource like everything else (like belts, signatures, anomalies, etc). Its not really that important how that is done. My sugestion would be a simple spawn mechanic. Missions could "spawn" at agents. Players than could get a list of missions they can select from (maybe modified standings to the agent). If all missions are taken by players the agent just wont offer any missions until a new mission would "spawn" at that agent. Once I do my missions I log out and you won't notice a hell of a difference other than Eve is emptier. Again, the idiotic ADD crowd will think "HAHA!1 I'm Glad!1!" but really, what will this accomplish other than driving away a portion of the eve population?
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 14:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Malcanis ...Likewise these missionbears you're trying to reason with. They don't care that their activity wrecks the game in numerous ways, so your arguments that missions should be reformed because of this damage carry no weight with them... ...So they'll lie, strawman, throw abuse, etc etc etc. I went through all this last year... ...I tried my level best and ran into the same class of pig-headed, blind, selfish, obstinate and mendacious fools that you're arguing with now... It's a good thing you're above us all in your high horse sniping your usual hating rhetoric from the clouds. Keep hatin' away o/.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 14:39:00 - [12] Dear Malcanis, I'm sorry that you hate me and you hate my play style. All I can suggest is you get over yourself, play the game and stop treating everyone else that doesn't play your game style like second-class citizens. Unless you're willing to pay my subscription, please stop asking people to play how you play. Thank you, Matrix Skye
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 15:38:00 - [13] Originally by: RedSplat Matrix is my Fav. Troll I aim to please .
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 17:13:00 - [14] Originally by: skye orionis Quotes like these are utterly ridiculous, PVP fits aren't magically better than mission fits. PVP fits are better for PVP than are PVE ships. What's ridiculous is you arguing they aren't. Quote: PVP fits have to sacrifice slots for things like warp scramblers. And then if they want to invade your mission space they'll need an expanded scanner to scan you down in your mission space, and then they need to have a PVP fit with an afterburner rather than an MWD. Once you pinpoint the deadspace entrance you dont need a probe scanner. If you're a respectable pirate you'll already know that MWD is useless in deadspace so you'll fit an afterburner instead. A scrambler on a PVP ship just means you'll be able to hold down the mission runner for as long as the fight is in your favor. As soon as it goes sour disengage and fly off. Chances are, and I'm being lax here, the PVE ship isn't fitting a scrambler. Quote: Basicly, a solo PVP ship is going to be at a disadvantage to a solo PVE ship when compared in terms of tank & gank. Bullst. Utter bull. And you know this. Quote:** But, pirates, unlike missioners are quite happy to work in gangs, that's how they offset their disadvantage. So, all missioners need to do is make use of the MM part of MMORPG and make some friends. MM = Massively Multiplayer. This doesn't in any way mean I have to hold hands with other players. There are lots of pirates that go at it solo. You have a problem with them also? Somehow I suspect your bias is just toward missionrunners. And I'm not saying I want to play in a "bubble" alone either. I'll go to low sec when I can make it through lazy gatecamps and not have to spend half of my time docked because I'm being scan probed.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 18:18:00 - [15] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 18:20:35 Originally by: skye orionis Show me a ship which has awesome ECM, scram, DPS and tank, sure an ECM ship can jam your BS up the wazoo, but it can't deliver enough dps to take you down, or tank your drones for any amount of time. By ECM I meant ECM in general, not just Caldari ECM. Think TDs, warp scramblers/disruptors, webbifiers, etc. Quote: And the resists argument is weak, consider that PVP ships have to have crappy omnitanks because they can't know what kind of damage they'll be dealiing with. The pirate that scans down a mission runner and has no idea what resist to protect against is a rtard, plain and simple. Quote:* Ok, there is one significant advantage the solo PVP'er gets, he can warp into a mission while the mission runner has all the rat aggro. That is perhaps the biggest single problem, rats should be smart enough to switch targets. This is absolutely a change I'd like to see, mission rats should be less single minded and should attack pirates too (maybe spawning a few scramming frigates to make sure they don't leave right away). OK, maybe if you're a pirate that has really good standing with the faction rats then they might welcome your assistance, just like factional warfare..... This would be awesome.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 18:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 18:41:01 Originally by: Nomore Telindus Originally by: Matrix Skye The pirate that scans down a mission runner and has no idea what resist to protect against is a rtard, plain and simple. Wrong. You don't have time to change your fittings. Wrong. A level 4 mission usually lasts around 1 to 2 hours, longer if runner decides to salvage and loot. Scanning down a target takes what, 5-15 minutes tops? If you're too lazy, impatient or rtarded to dock and switch that's all on you, buddy. But you know this well and are just trying to distort information :). Oh, and let's not forget you usually call in your friends for extra lulz. So even if you are that stupid to go in with your cov ops ship to kill that mighty Raven (), don't worry, your friends got your back, amirite or amirite?
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 18:48:00 - [17] Originally by: skye orionis May I ask what the damage type of the most popular mission running ships are? (sigh) You'll be better off seeing what kind of NPC wrecks is the mission runner leaving behind. If it's against Guristas then chances are he's spewing kinetic and heavily tanking against kinetic. For Bloods, EM, for Angels, Explosive, etc. Is this a serious question? Quote: I believe that the Raven and it's navy counterpart are the king of missioning, and they can switch damage types at a whim. (Hell they can even laugh at PVP'ers who fit tracking distruptores, and switch to FOF missiles if they find that ECM is the flavour of the day.) Raven being king of missions is just a myth and isn't true anymore because whiners whined and whined on how 'powerful' it was and supposedly still is. Right . FOF is laughable I agree. But you don't need FOFs to take down a Raven .
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 18:55:00 - [18] And since you seem to not know, I'll let you in on a little sekrit. Ravens, and Caldari ships in general have an EM weakness the size of the Ozone hole. So if you scan down a mission fighting against, say Guristas, just show him EM and the ship goes down like Superman on kryptonite.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:11:00 - [19] Originally by: Nomore Telindus Mr. 'I'm the best PVEer': Please tell how you can spend two hours in a mission? Even a blockade lasts only ~30 mins for me (okay, + loot time and i have an alt), so how can i spend the remaining 1,5 hours well? Here it is again since you seem to have missed it, accidentally of course :P Originally by: Matrix Skye Wrong. A level 4 mission usually lasts around 1 to 2 hours, longer if runner decides to salvage and loot. And believe it or not, not everyone and their mothers speed through missions. I know I don't. And I don't have a pimp Raven. It's nice, but not pimp. So I can't run a 6-hour mission in less than 1 hour. Nice try though. And I loot and salvage so takes me longer for the longer missions, like the Blockade or Gurista Extrvaganza. And since we're in the subject of nitpicking times, how long does it take you to scan down a target, eh? Nice attempt though . You see, that's the problem with you. You try and bring up a legitimate reason to bring more targets to your lazy gatecamps but you're not bright enough to make it believable. So you distort it instead.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:17:00 - [20] Originally by: skye orionis Originally by: Matrix Skye And since you seem to not know, I'll let you in on a little sekrit. Ravens, and Caldari ships in general have an EM weakness the size of the Ozone hole. So if you scan down a mission fighting against, say Guristas, just show him EM and the ship goes down like Superman on kryptonite. And then you warp in on a Raven fighting sansha or blood raiders and go 'ooops'. WTF? Are you serious? Do you not check the wrecks before you go in blind? Seriously dude, you need to ask your corpmates on how to scan down targets properly. Don't take it the wrong way. On the other hand, you may just be yankin my chain... In that case, touche.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 19:34:36 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Shaun Klaroh I've been reading into this PvP thing and it looks like it could be fun, but at the same time, from what I've been hearing, making a living off of it is near impossible without exposing yourself to other pirates when moving goods.. I suggest that you stop reading posts by people who are highly motivated to make lo-sec seem more dangerous than it is, and go look for yourself. And if he decides to follow your advice I'd appreciate him following up in this thread what his experience in losec was like :).
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 19:59:00 - [22] Originally by: skye orionis Originally by: Matrix Skye C.H.E.C.K. T.H.E. W.R.E.C.K.S!!! Have you ever ran missions at all? And how do you check the wrecks? Oh yes you use the directional scanner, a device which every pirate can use to gather intel on missioners, and, the same device which a mission runner can use to detect pirates. What's good for one is good for the other. And round and round in circles we go . That's not what we were arguing but, sure let's move on to another subject. But let me just make sure we can bury this idiocy: You now agree that as a pirate you can easily verify, and therefore easily gank and tank against a mission runner? Me personally I always kept my eye on the scanner and local. Spamming and spamming away at the button. Not very fun at all. My problem was trying to mission while not getting probed out. Just isnt fun. Quote: Anyway, you've still to show me a PVP fit with more tank, gank and ewar than a PVE fit, you made some lame excuse to skip around the question by saying that you really meant ewar when you said ecm, so I re-pose the question. So you're suggesting that a PVE ship is superior in tank and gank to the same ship fit for PVP? Are you saying that a PVE Raven can take down a PVP Raven? I just don't know what to tell you. Hell, a PVP command ship or even an HAC can take down a PVE Raven with ease . Quote: Once again I postulate that the pirates greatest advantages are not in ship setups, but in choosing the right target and collaborating with friends. And the missioner's greatest weakness is their anti-social nature and desire to keep doing the same thing in a loop. I'm not antisocial in RL but thanks anyway. Are you a murderer and thief in real life? I choose to do my missions alone because I choose to do my missions alone. I'm sorry if that bothers you. I'm sorry if it makes you feel jealous, or mad, or eager to have me nerfed, or banned, or whatever. I truly am. I'm sorry if you think it's unfair I can do missions in high sec by myself and make enough to buy stuffs. I'm sorry you feel the need to rage about my playstyle on the forums. But I am especially sorry you feel the need to call me antisocial because I refuse to follow you into lowsec so you can blow me up and add me to your killboard so you can feel superior to me.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 21:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 21:52:57 Originally by: Nomore Telindus Originally by: Matrix Skye I choose to do my missions alone because I choose to do my missions alone. So you nerfed yourself to the oblivion and now cry because others playing this game according to it's rules??? Dammit, I forgot that minor detail! You're right! I'm the one whining and crying to have CCP nerf my playstyle. Not only that, but I'm also not playing the game by the rules. You're just the brightest color on the crayon box now arentcha.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 22:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Nomore Telindus In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum) Is this speedmissioning? Ok, now try missioning, looting, and salvaging 4 missions with ONE ACCOUNT. Then post your time. Quote: Dunno. It's not my job atm. I only played 6 days in this year so far (RL), so the new scanner interface is new to me. Then take my word for it or ask your dedicated probers. It usually takes single digit minutes to probe a missioner down, sometimes as little as 3 minutes. There's even a video going around on how to do it in about 3 minutes. Can't be aed to find it. Sorry. Quote:** I don't want the highsec players in lowsec. But atm. highsec is exploited by macroers and by people who are rendering this game's pvp concept to a wow style battlegorund crap. CCP forgot to balancing the incomes after the introduction of rigs and increased starting SP. Nothing more, nothing less. Then the problem is macroers, not hi sec. And to my knowledge no hisec carebear is asking CCP to turn hisec into WOW or even turn it into anything. It's fine as it is quite frankly. It fits casual players and players that want minimal hassle from "PVPers". I for one dont like losec because of the immature players there. Yes, there are just as much immature players in hi sec, but atleast there a$$hattery is a bit under control in hisec. But it's where I choose to play. My decision.
Matrix Skye Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.28 23:29:00 - [25] Edited by: Matrix Skye on 28/05/2009 23:35:28 Originally by: Nomore Telindus Originally by: Matrix Skye Originally by: Nomore Telindus In the past 1,5 hours i made four missions. I killed everything and salvaged every single wreck. I used a damnation and a megathron with ordinary T2 equipment. (and i fought against sanshas with crap uranium L, so my damage output was only 60% of the maximum) Is this speedmissioning? Ok, now try missioning, looting, and salvaging 4 missions with ONE ACCOUNT. Then post your time. Roughly 30-40% more. What is your problem with cooperative gaming? Working as intended. (and my two account is just top of the iceberg. Blue local, defensive gang, intel channels are even more helpfull things) Dude, I have nothing against you running missions with 2 accounts I asked you to try doing it with one account because you're disputing my claim that missions take about 1-2 hours to complete, sometimes longer. Of course they don't take long with two accounts! That's not what we're arguing. Are you r*tarded? The rest of your post is just circular reasoning where we'll just end up going round and round. Typical argument style with you and the rest of your whining buddies.

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